ideath: The state of things

ideath (

ideath) wrote,
@ 2008-04-24 12:12:00

The state of things
I love reading the news. And when it gets really good, i have to share with someone. Last night i finally got to share my favorite headline of the month ("Cabbies tired of pickup lines", LA Times) with

conform - but it's really just the headline on that one that's funny. But TODAY! Today is a gold mine. Here are two lovely little articles for you:

Prayer at the Pump (AP):

"Twyman says that if God brought down the walls of Jericho when the ancient Hebrews prayed, then divine intervention can bring down gas prices too."

jes5199 & other Christianity-literate friends, do you have any good bible examples of people asking for the wrong thing? i kinda wish i spoke that language.

Bachmann Strikes Another Blow for Freedom:

"When questioned whether the health and environmental costs [of legalizing leaded gasoline] could be justified economically, Bachmann [R-MN] responded, 'I think the American people understand freedom is more important than brain damage.'"

...and with her bill, you don't have to choose!

(Ok, back to work.)

(Post a new comment)

	qousqous 2008-04-24 08:21 pm UTC (link)
	I'm all about negative freedoms. I'd really like to be free from brain damage, if I so choose. (Reply to this)

	unkle_social 2008-04-24 10:18 pm UTC (link)
	My favourite part is : There was no immediate answer, but he says other motorists joined in and the service station owner didn't run them off. (Reply to this)

jes5199
2008-04-24 10:49 pm UTC (link)

I haven't really been able to think of anything exactly like that. "Be careful what you wish for" doesn't seem to be a biblical message. (but I'm pretty sure I've heard a preacherman tell Aesop's fable to make that point)

There's been a lot written in modern times about "selfish prayer", but much of it doesn't run very deep -- don't ask for money, don't ask for power*. and I found an essay about the obvious problem of praying for victory in a war when there are Christians on both sides.
But the prevailing theology, or protestant theology at least, says that praying is extremely safe, and at worst, the experience of not getting what you want will be a learning experience.

Taking it a level further, some would say that the notion of "praying for something" is inherently heathen, and that true prayer is more of a connected, listening condition. (1 2)

* ha!

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	jes5199 2008-04-24 10:57 pm UTC (link)
	and the other thing: Jericho is a bad example. the Israelites weren't saying "gee, it sure would be nice for us if we could take down that city over there" The priests brought the word down from on high, "okay, have to go unarmed and outnumbered into enemy territory and blow some trumpets towards their capitol city" (Reply to this) (Parent)

glowing_fish
2008-04-24 11:23 pm UTC (link)

I was actually wondering if praying is actually mentioned in the bible, at least in the old testament, at all. I do know it is mentioned in places, but I don't know if it is in a prominent place, or if the term "pray" really even translates the Hebrew word well.
As you know, Bob, lots of things have been retconned into Hebraic belief that weren't originally there, or weren't (particularly) important: eschatology, cosmology, the afterlife, the idea of an adversarial power, and even that crude little Indo-European term, "God".

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	ideath 2008-04-25 05:08 pm UTC (link)
	Worth looking up. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	glowing_fish 2008-04-26 06:32 pm UTC (link)
	Everything is worth looking up! (Reply to this) (Parent)

Praying for victory...

pmb
2008-04-25 02:25 am UTC (link)

It was a time of great and exalting excitement. The country was up in arms, the war was on, in every breast burned the holy fire of patriotism; ...

(Reply to this) (Parent)

glowing_fish
2008-04-24 11:17 pm UTC (link)

Although the particular person in question may or may not know all the details, it is true that high gas prices are probably going to hit the rural poor the most, and therefore it would seem to be a humane wish that people can still manage to drive somewhere to buy their groceries.
(Although, of course, in hindsight, living 15 miles from a grocery store perhaps isn't the best idea.)
Although, of course, compared to what an energy crisis will do in the third world, what effects it has in the US will be minuscule.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

glowing_fish
2008-04-26 08:00 pm UTC (link)

Twyman knows his approach to gasoline prices may sound simplistic. He's quick to point out that anyone praying for cheaper fuel also has an obligation to do something more active about the problem.

"People have to walk more, leave those cars at home, and carpool, man," he said. "We have to become more practical."

Also, Twyman is African-American.
If I was going to be cheap, I would ask whether it is more problematic to mock black people for their religion than it is to mock white people for their religion. But have I ever been cheap?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	ideath 2008-04-28 01:36 am UTC (link)
	Wait, what? What makes you think he's african-american? It doesn't say anything about race in the article. Anyway, i don't think i'm mocking people for their religion here. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

glowing_fish
2008-04-28 02:55 am UTC (link)

::: sighs :::

Laurel, after ten years on the internet, I expect better of you! The correct response was

"ZOMG WTF r u talking about i m not a RACIST u r !!!!!"

Anyway, the serious response was:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/04/26/BUCN10C1KR.DTL
talks about Twyman and some of his other ventures.

As for why race is an issue...um, can I plead that I was just looking to see if I could escalate this to a Godwin's situation?
No?
Well, seriously, I just think that perhaps more sympathy (or at least an admission that the entire dynamics of the culture might be beyond our first glance) would be given if this was understood to be another ethnic group's way of dealing with poverty.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

	glowing_fish 2008-04-24 11:25 pm UTC (link)
	Also, you do know that second article was posted April 1st, right? (Reply to this) (Thread)

	That's an excellent point ideath 2008-04-25 05:02 pm UTC (link)
	And i didn't notice it until you mentioned it. However, the Light Bulb Freedom of Choice Act is a for-real thing. There's less evidence for the leaded gas position. In the article that i found first (the blog post was more fleshed out, the first i ran across was a brief news article), they were a little more cagey about the quote, too. (Reply to this) (Parent)

orangejulius
2008-04-25 02:52 am UTC (link)

The mistake that people make here is that God gives people what they want, and it's an easy mistake to make, because well-meaning but poorly-learned ministers preach this sort of message all the time. There are just about zero instances in the Bible where God (or someone else) shows up and says "Hey, I heard you wanted x, so here you go." OK, there are places where God gives Sarah a child, or delivers the Israelites from Egypt, or brings Lazarus back from the dead. So sometimes God's will coincides with the desires of certain people. But God doesn't give people what they want. God gives people what they need. The rest is up to them.

You probably know the joke where this guy is drowning, but he keeps telling the boats that pass by that God is going to save him, and when he dies and demands to know why God let him drown, God says "Dude, I sent you like a dozen boats!" Well, maybe God doesn't have any interest in lowering gas prices. Maybe God wants gas prices to be high so that we stop wrecking the planet.

Praying to God for lower gas prices, in my opinion, is something that people should be absolutely ashamed of. First of all, God has made it pretty clear that he doesn't exactly intervene in everyday lives on a whim -- he usually has some pretty good reasons for screwing with our free will. But assuming that God just decided to step in and alleviate some suffering... don't you think maybe a blind kid in Bangladesh needs eyesight a little bit more than we need cheap gasoline?

Man, why do I get fired up about this shit? Most of the people who call themselves Christians have completely missed the message anyway.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	"God doesn't give people what they want. God gives people what they need. The rest is up to them." ideath 2008-04-25 05:04 pm UTC (link)
	Yeah, that's kinda the message i was thinking i'd heard - somewhere - but i'm ill-educated, so i couldn't quote anything supporting it. (Reply to this) (Parent)

cpadian
2008-04-25 03:55 am UTC (link)

Honestly, I am no longer shocked by the depths the average person will sink to in the name of Christianity. Reality TV, awards shows, sporting events, the lottery...there's not much that folks won't just throw prayer at and hope it sticks. It's not surprising that today's Christians see prayer as a means to an end though...think about the big message of Christianity itself: follow these rules, get into heaven. I think there are a fair number of Christians who will only ever understand that much about their religion, who will practice it because it will get them something, not because of any intrinsic value in their beliefs. Seems a shame.

(Reply to this)

	hazenhammel 2008-04-26 02:28 am UTC (link)
	Jesus talks about asking for the wrong thing frequently, but as for examples, the closest thing I can think of extemporaneously is Jonah begging God not to make him go to Ninevah (he ends up in the whale because he tries to run from his destiny). But "be careful what you ask for because you may get it" doesn't seem to be a theme. (Reply to this)

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